Gareth McGlynn: Scott Chatterton. Welcome to the Preconstruction Podcast.
Scott Chatterton: Great. Thank you very much.
Gareth: Good. Imagine you're here. You're the third Aussie to dawn the Preconstruction podcast.
Scott: Well, you know, we Aussies we get around.
Gareth: You do get around. I mean, I think this is nearly 43 or 44 episodes. And we've already got three Aussies. That's a decent ratio.
Scott: Yeah, well, that's good. That's good.
Gareth: Good. Well, to not to put any pressure on you, but both Matt and David before you, it's pretty good. So you're gonna have to step up to the plate representing New South Wales.
Scott: Yeah, that's right. Talking about the football rivalry there, weren’t we?
Gareth: [Laughter] Very good. All right. So, for anybody that doesn't know you, Scott, I'll let you give a quick intro on yourself, where you're at right now. I know you've been there quite a while and what you're doing.
Scott: Okay, thanks. So yeah, I'm currently the BIM Solutions Director for a company called BIM One. We're a BIM consulting firm. It's based out of Quebec, but I'm actually located in Western Canada, near Vancouver. We specialize in assisting companies achieve success utilizing BIM and digital project delivery. So all aspects from data, data management, transfer of information for the project, digital project delivery, education, all the way from the owners, through construction, through design, all the way down to the trades.
Gareth: Brilliant love it. I mean, let's kind of-- You're probably have been a little bit humble there. But you've got 25, 26 years here in BIM starting off as a CAD manager working in, obviously New South Wales, then three architects, general contractors, consultants. So good, good background. Where are we at with BIM? If you take us back there in 2002, where has it come from and where do you think it is right now?
Scott: Yeah, good point. So, you know, in the early days, when I first got into the industry, when everyone was using, you know, basically everyone was using a CAD-based platform. And, you know, the transition, everyone upgraded this software, maybe every three years, maybe. We've certainly come a long way in the last 20 plus years of that initial computer aided design now through the digital project delivery. I would say more so in the last 10, 12 years, probably probably 12 years, when I started getting into utilizing Revit and started teaching Revit. I came from an architectural technologist background before that, and I understood the process was an early adopter of AutoCAD Architecture. So utilizing the modeling tools in that platform, saw the advantage of Building Information Modeling, and thought,”You know what, I'm going to be out of a job in about three years, because this will just take over the whole industry, and we'll be good to go.’ So yeah, that was 12 years ago, and we're still-- we're still transitioning a lot of firms into a BIM utilization platform or digital project delivery platform.
Gareth: So here's the million dollar question. Why is it taking so long? Why is it not moving quicker?
Scott: Yeah, and I think a lot of that has to do with change management, I think. I think the, you know, the construction industry is inherently adverse to change. We're one of the least performing industries. We've got a very traditional culture. So, with architecture, with construction, it's very difficult to transition new products, new methods, new ways of doing thing into all aspects of the industry. You know, what I see now with a lot of the architects, they've got a very strong design background. They're not strong in technology and those are the leaders of a lot of a lot of these firms. So they're very resistant to bring in something that they may be unsure of, bringing in something that would have an immediate, possibly negative impact on their bottom line. And the same for construction, right? We've got a lot of construction guys that are-- know how to do things, know how to do it this way and are resistant to adopting new stuff. That's changing, right. We've got a lot of university students that are coming out of-- students are coming out of university, we've got a generation now that's growing up with digital tools. So, they're not afraid to use those tools. You know, my kids are a great example of that. My son is now in the industry. And I give him one piece of software. And he's like, “Yeah, sure, I'll, you know, I'll learn that in a week and away we go.” He's quite comfortable, you know, me throwing new applications at him and he's quite comfortable adopting them and implementing into his work flow. And we're starting to see that cycle through now, especially the design firms, right? We're getting a younger leadership in there. The market is increasingly competitive. And I think a lot of design firms and a lot of contractors are tired of losing money on projects.
Gareth: Yeah, yeah. And tired of taking risk. That what they're tired of doing because we--
Scott: Tired of taking risk [unintelligible].
Gareth: Actually…
Scott: I think that they saw that adoption of BIM as being a risk.
Gareth: Yeah.
Scott: And now the risk is if you don't adopt it.
Gareth: But not only that. We saw that actually in Australia recently. I don't know if you're aware but Broad Construction, a South African firm. They went to the wall now. I was working in Paris in 2014 and they were one of the leaders. They were ahead of everyone. But they got one bad project and they got it seriously wrong. Now, they’re out of business. That is the risk the general contractors are having. But I think that risk, along with risk in technology, I think they're just kind of pushing everything back. It's just pure fear.
Scott: Exactly.
Gareth: And I think what's going to happen, and I see it happen already on the preconstruction technology side of things with people using Excel, and then using our estimating software, they're looking around now and they're seeing the guy next door, who used to be on par with him, he's now doubled his revenue and has gone well. They've gone over what has changed and he’s just more open, more collaborative, more interested in technology, because it's impossible to do it without technology. And within BIM and VDC, you're obviously in the consultant side now, what are you seeing? What's the major push backs from you? Obviously, when the companies come to you, they're kind of open already. They've gone through that first step, they've asked for some help. But what are you seeing then once they've asked for that first step of help? What are you seeing in the contractors and the design firms?
Scott: Yeah, so from the contractors, we're seeing more of a demand for BIM deliverables from their clients, from the owners. And the owners are starting to realize that BIM can save the money not only during construction, but they can utilize BIM in many other aspects aside from the design and construction process. So, you know, we're seeing a huge influx now of the importance of data and data management for building operations and maintenance for now and O&M. We're seeing that from the large clients, right? From hospitals from-- but that's starting to trickle down, and we're doing now multi-residential projects. We're doing commercial projects that the owners are utilizing the data for their operations and maintenance, not to the same extent, the same degree that they're using it for the operations in running of hospitals, but just the day to day to make sure that they're changing the, you know, the servicing and maintaining the chillers, or maintaining aspects of the building that's going to save them money, or it's can save them operating cost. You know, margins are now so tight that they're having to do this. So they're being-- constructions being pushed by owners. They were after the architects, they were rapid adopters because they saw the benefits around proper coordination, the reduction in site instructions, the reduction in changes on site or screw ups without, you know, re-core holes in concrete, for example. So they were a big proponent around doing proper coordination, digital coordination early, which is good. So I think we've seen that slow transition. Obviously, the larger firms adopted at first because they were able to invest in it early but it's starting to trickle down. And what I'm seeing now is a lot of smaller construction companies, a lot of smaller architectural firms. They're either being pushed into it, which can be challenging for them unless they want to go willingly can be can be a difficult transition for them. Or they're embracing it wholeheartedly. They've, like I’ve mentioned before, they've either had a change of leadership, they've got younger, newer leadership that understand and recognize the benefit of these tools, and they're implementing it into their work flow. So they're going to say, “You know what, this year, we're going to take a hit. We're going to do six months of implementation. We're not going to totally lose money on projects, but we're not going to be as profitable. Or in some cases, maybe we will, because we're going to be doing projects more efficiently.” And then after that, we just see them grow and, and stabilize in the industry and be able to be more competitive. The competition is really driving the factor now.
Gareth: Yeah, I think you touched on one thing there as being forced into it and actually deciding to do it. I think we saw a couple of companies decide to do it very early on, like I'm talking decades ago, and they're seeing the fruition of that now. But it's a big investment. You're right, especially early on, but as you said, there can be a return on investment quite quickly. I mean, how do you kind of communicate that to a mid-level contractor who's thinking to make a big cost?
Scott: Yeah. We just show them the benefits. And and you know what, quite often, it's their staff that makes-- that helps push it forward. Because what I quite often find is leadership don't really realize that their staff are wanting to use these tools and move forward. They see the inefficiencies. Now, the people in the trenches see the inefficiencies and they’re saying to themselves, “Man, there's got to be a better way. There's got to be better tools to do this. Or, you know, “I'm sick of having to put these fires out all the time, or be pressed at the crunch at the end of a project to deliver.” So they're the ones that, you know, when we come to them and say, “Hey, look, guys. You know, we're going to start implementing our BIM process or digital project delivery work flow into your organization.” The majority of the response that we get is “Yey, great! Bring it on, because we want to do it better. We want to do things better.” And that the willingness, like you mentioned before, the willingness to do this really mitigates the risk of failure.
Gareth: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I think that the BIM community's got to have a lot to answer for that as well, because it really is open and collaborative, and there's a lot of content out there at the minute. I mean, obviously, we all hear about them. There’s a B1M, the YouTube channel that's gone really well. I mean, there's a lot of content out there really showing the benefits of BIM essentially, for framing, how much of an effect has that had?
Scott: Yeah, we've changed the culture of the industry, right? BIM has changed the culture. And it's had-- it's certainly had a massive impact and we see that with, like you said, with the success of B1M and the videos that they produce, the quality, the interesting stories they tell about projects, and the impact that the BIM has had on on those large scale projects, which we've seen, and it's starting to trickle down. Yeah, it's been very interesting.
Gareth: Brilliant. Yeah. And where do you see-- what's the most exciting thing when you get up in the morning right now? What's the most exciting thing that you see? The thing I love about BIM One at Quebec, who you're working for right now is, it's impartial. They're completely independent. They're not tied to anyone. They're not a reseller. What tools are coming out right now that you think-- and they may not be available right now, but you think, “This is going to be nice, and I can't wait to this comes out”?
Scott: Yeah. Yeah. So some of the stuff that I get excited about now is when a firm comes to us, and they already are utilizing them, and they come to us and say, “We want to utilize BIM further. We were creating our drawings.” Or, “We're using it in construction to analyze clash detection coordination.” They're still handing over PDFs or the contractor is still using PDFs for takeoffs. It's utilizing it beyond the basic essentials, which we've been doing for the last 10 years. Visualization has had a huge positive impact and visualization from the perspective of quickly and easily generating renderings, utilizing virtual reality and augmented reality. So, virtual reality from the designers’ perspective from communicating design intent to utilizing VR collaboratively, like bringing together, you know, the contractor in New York, the designer in Vancouver, the engineer in LA, all in a virtual meeting and walking around a digital prototype of the building. You know, that's pretty cool stuff.
Gareth: Is that happening in now, Scott? How long-- how long are we away from that?
Scott: [Cross talk] Yeah, that's happening now. I did…
Gareth: Yeah?
Scott: Yeah. I did some early concept testing a couple years ago actually with a guy in Sydney, with one of my team members in Toronto, and myself in Vancouver. And it was awesome, right? We got to talk, communicate using avatars walk around this project, you know, had notepads, to be able to talk about issues. It was awesome. And now that's just, it's available. It's out there, people are doing it.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Scott: It's being underutilized because I think, you know, with technology people need to embrace it, just say, “Hey, this is something. Let's try it. Let's see how it'll work.” And quite often, the benefits are just mind blowing. And something that is quite often is so affordable, right? It's the low hanging fruit stuff that is quite easy to do.
Gareth: Yeah.
Scott: I think the other thing that we've seen recently, and I get excited about this, too, is we're in an era right now of a far more collaborative delivery process. So, you know, we've dabbled in IPD. But when it's not an IPD project, we can still collaborate on the project way more efficiently and more effectively than we ever have before. And, you know, pandemic has pushed us into that because people were forced to work remotely forced to work using Zoom and work from home. So, they weren't able to meet face to face like we used to do. We used to bring everybody together regardless of where they were at. You know, I used to fly it all away for meetings for one hour meetings. How ridiculous is that? It just as made the whole process. Lot more streamlined.
Gareth: Brilliant. Yeah. Now I agree with you. And when you talk about things like that, about the VR and augmented reality, is there a chance that we're moving too fast? Because I mean, going from that to there, are we skipping steps or do you think we're going at the right pace?
Scott: Um, it depends on who you talk to. Some people think we're still going too slow.
Gareth: Yeah. So Scott, I mean, from my point of view, when you talk about augmented reality, virtual reality, I mean, are we going too fast as an industry? Because I don't know. Are we skipping steps?
Scott: Yeah, I don't think we're skipping steps. I think we're-- I think we need to catch up. We're still way behind, you know, compared to many other industry, is way behind. Even the farming industry, we're still so far behind where there's lot more automation and a lot more process involved. So I think we've got some catching up to do. I think what we will see is, we'll see rapid adoption of digital tools. I think we're already seeing an industry evolve and develop around servicing the whole AECO industry, in providing apps, providing services, providing plugins, and as everything is really starting to come together, we're collaborating more. You know, everybody's aspect of a project is still parceled out, but it's now got a perspective of the whole process. So we're bringing trades on earlier even bringing trades on during the design process to get their opinion on how to do things. We never did that before. It was like here's the architect, here's the design, here’s the structural design. Thank you very much. You guys do whatever you guys want on the site, what you need to do. Well, that's all changed. So the the cycle of delivering project is getting quicker. I think things like prefab and modularization of design, you know, I've been saying this for years, but that's really going to take off. We're already starting to see that. You know, modular and prefab has been big in Europe for many years. I think there's a little bit of stigmatism in North America around that. I think we're overcoming that because we're seeing the quality of prefab that's coming out, especially around mass timber. You know, that has really pushed it forward. And that, yeah, so that's a whole another topic that that is really going to be pushing the envelop here and construction.
Gareth: Yeah, I think I think northern Scandinavia as well has really been ahead of the game when it comes to prefabrication and modular. I think one of my clients, Skanska did a bit of a road trip out there a few years ago, and some of the things that they got from that, and have brought to the table have been, they've been revolutionary and that they've been game changers. Do you see a lot of that happening?
Scott: I think I do. And I think we see they're finally happening here in North America. Because, you know, for so long we've had, we've got tons of space, we got tons of resources, and we got tons of money. So, you know, the cost of projects and delivering projects has always been a factor but you know, we've been sourcing materials and we've got lots of space to be able to do it. Europe's different, right? They got certainly more constraints on space, more constraints on materials, and economics. We're starting to see that here mostly because it's a social change. Society wants more efficient buildings. They want less wastage on site. I haven't been involved with so many sustainable buildings. I've been involved with more sustainable buildings in the last year than I have in the last 10 years, and same for mass timber and heavy wood construction. It's just taking off because of the carbon capture aspects, the livability of these buildings, the social aspect, and the impact that these have on projects, we're able now to basically move into a vacant city lot and put up a building in a week to 10 days. Get our four storey building in a week to 10 days with minimal staging area. So aspects like that, you know, the benefits are huge. So, you know, we talk about the ripple effect. We're dealing now with regional policymakers, regional districts, so you know, the city of Vancouver, city in North Vancouver, those areas, those decision makers that are now seriously looking at how they permit projects, right? We're utilizing a digital permitting process. Let's bring the permitting process down from six months, seven months, sometimes eight months, down to a number of weeks. And we can do that utilizing BIM, and the pressure’s there, because the contractors want to be able to get the project done. They're able to do it more quickly utilizing prefab and modular. There's an aspect there of inspecting the building before it leaves the factory--
Gareth: Uh-hmm, I agree.
Scott: --as opposed to on site.
Gareth: Yeah.
Scott: The safety aspects of guys building these things in a controlled environment. You know, a guy can come to work, it could be minus 30 outside, the guy in the factory, and the wearing jeans and a shirt. You know, the comfort level there, so they're able to retain their stuff. So the spin offs are just huge.
Gareth: Yeah. And I think the whole time constraint and doing things quicker, it will help as well in financing. It'll help in people saying, “Right, that's what I want to build. This is what I want to build.” Whereas if you do precon on something 18 months prior to building it, the price is completely different. I mean, we find that after COVID, post COVID or even during COVID, and during the pandemic that we're currently in. I mean, clients literally just cancel contracts, cancel projects after 18 months of precon. I mean, that is a lot of money and a lot of waste.
Scott: Yes, and a risk. You know, we've seen the cost of construction skyrocket the last couple of years. So imagine starting a project 18 months ago, with one budget in mind to discover 18 months later that your budget’s gone up by 20, potentially 30%. You know, that's that's crazy.
Gareth: Yeah, it's a joke and hopefully that helps us as well.
Scott: Yeah.
Gareth: Yes, brilliant. Scott, one thing I always like to discuss is where you're living in. You're the first podcast guests we've had from Vancouver. You're an Aussie common to Vancouver. First of all, why did you pick Vancouver and then tell us a little bit about Vancouver?
Scott: Yeah, so I say Vancouver-- I don't actually live in Vancouver. I say Vancouver because people don't know when I mentioned Vernon, people don't know where that is. So I'm about inland from Vancouver. I'm in a beautiful valley called the Okanagan Valley.
Gareth: Beautiful.
Scott: A small town called Vernon. It's about, I think, it's about less than 40,000 people. It's a wine belt through here. So we get a lot of ski hills, wineries. I shouldn't be telling you all of this because it's just going to increase our population [Cross talk]..
Gareth: [Cross talk] [laughter]
Scott: Yeah, exactly. You know, I got a I got a beautiful home overlooking the lake. I do have to commute. I do have to travel a lot, right? Because in a small town I in my office used to be in Vancouver when I worked in the industry. Spent a lot of time in Vancouver. Vancouver is gorgeous. It's a beautiful city. You know, I've been to a lot of cities where it's business or it's purely tourism. Vancouver is both. It's a beautiful place to work and to live. The waterfront’s right there, the harbor. You know, you can sit in your office and you can watch the float planes come in.
Gareth: Beautiful.
Scott: It's just awesome. And then the cruise ships. And then you know, the commute home, the traffic's terrible. But you know, I used to take my bicycle and just ride everywhere and ride around Stanley Park, ride over the bridge in the North Van. Oh, yeah. It's a gorgeous place. I love visiting it, but I'm glad to come home.
Gareth: Yeah, fair enough. Well, you get the best of both worlds. You can get out there and enjoy your ride for a while and then you can get into the city and do some business. And then where's the nearest airport if you're in Vernon? Do you fly out of Vancouver?
Scott: No. I fly out to Kelowna. Kelowna if I'm going to Vancouver, and then Vancouver is the major hub. I used to go to Germany a lot for a project. So I'd fly to Kelowna, Kelowna to Vancouver, and then Vancouver over to Europe.
Gareth: Brilliant. Love it.
Scott: Yeah.
Gareth: Now I'm going to finish with some [unintelligible] one, another question and I haven't-- I didn't get a chance to ask it. But what would you give-- what advice would you give to yourself 20 years ago? We've got a lot of young, kind of, recent graduates listening to the podcast and they're sitting there. They just got their construction management degree and they're going, “You know what? It's been VDC. Sounds like fun.” What advice would you give them?
Scott: Yeah, good question. Okay. So in the very, very beginning of my career, I was old school. I was hand drafting on a board. I actually worked with my dad and the two of us, we had boards side by side with each other and did all this hand drafting. Loved it, it's a craft, right? And it was beautiful. I really enjoyed that time. Somebody gave me, I think was a pirated copy of AutoCAD, and loaded it up on my computer at the time, you know, an old 386 or whatever it was. And I thought, “Oh my God. This is crap. You know, this black screen with these colored lines. What would, you know. This will never take [cross talk]--
Gareth: [Cross talk] might cancel. Yeah.
Scott: Exactly. Right? You know, I kind of work on this 12-inch screen. It’s ridiculus. Nobody's gonna want to do this. It was until many years later, when I actually moved to Canada, I was working for a log home company, designing and doing chalk drawings for log homes that I was-- I had to take an AutoCAD class. You know, I did work for an architect for a period of time, got this job, and a friend of mine who worked for a reseller at the time, came to me and said, “Look, these are the tools in AutoCAD. Look at this, you know, this ADT stuff, this architectural desktop stuff that they're starting to use. This 3D stuff's gonna take off.” And that's when the light went off in my light bulb went off above my head and I thought, because I had somebody else working with me, and they got really excited about it, and I'm thinking, this is crap. You know, I'm going to continue to do what I do. And they said, “Wow, this is really cool.” And I looked at them, and they were a little bit younger than me and I thought, “Oh, my God. If I don't keep up, I'm going to fall behind.”
Gareth: Yeah, yeah.
Scott: Right? It's a competitive industry. There's lots of people out there like me that are young and wanting to get a foothold in the industry. If I don't pick this up and adopted, I'm going to be left behind, right? I don't have a ton of education. You know, there's other aspects that I had to gain on. And that's when I got to a point early on in my career where you know, I was the first guy to put my hand up. “Who wants to look after the BIM standards?” Yeah, sure. CAD standards, you bet. Right? I became a CAD manager, learned leadership skills, became a BIM manager, you know, taught Revit. That was probably one of the most fun things and best things I ever did was teaching.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Scott: Because you get to learn to communicate with people, resolve their issues, resolve their challenges, and just help them overcome that little bit of change management. And then how to work with people and get the most-- the best out of them. That was the part that I really enjoyed.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Scott: So yeah. If I had that chance, I would have gone back when I was much younger and said, “Hey, look at this, you know, this computer stuff? It's pretty cool.” Yeah. And that's, the that's the advice that I give people nowadays, right? Regardless of what aspect of the industry you're in, is don't be afraid to adopt new stuff and especially now because you can adopt tools now, don't be committed to them. Because in 12 months’ time, in 18 months’ time, it could be completely different. Or there could be something better on the market.
Gareth: Try everything but don’t pigeonhole yourself here. It is something I always ask questions, and go and experience because there’s that many rules within contractors, architects, owners, developers. You can literally do anything. There’s so much now. Before it used to be project manager or [unintelligible] talent. That was it.
Scott: Yeah.
Gareth: That was a [cross talk].
Scott: Yes, exactly.
Gareth: Now you got a multitude of options.
Scott: Yeah. The broad range now of the industry, the digital project delivery touches is incredible.
Gareth: Yes.
Scott: Either we’re going from people that are programming and doing computational design, right? In my last 31.56 we hired a programmer to help us with computational design.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Scott: We bring in, you know, architectural students to focus on doing the virtual reality or the augmented reality, or the 3D printing. It’s just so different than 10 years ago in the industry and there’s--
Gareth: Yes and we really need to share about it a little bit more. We need to compete with science, the services, the tech companies. We need to compete for these talents.
Scott: Yes.
Gareth: These talented people, will it be a data scientist, a data engineer? We really need to get them in and around this training. With them and the knowledge that we already have, the sooner can we move forward.
Scott: Yup. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Scott: So it’s a cool time. It’s gonna be interesting to see what happens in the next 10 years.
Gareth: I cannot wait to see what happens especially at BIM One. Scott, listen, you have been in a lot of pressure. What is the best way to contact you if someone listening now wanted to follow up with a question and wanted to find out about BIM One services? How is the best way to get in touch?
Scott: Yeah. So, two really good way to get a hold of me is obviously through LinkedIn. I check my LinkedIn quite regularly so you can Google me. I think I’m still a BIM Jedi.
Gareth: Brilliant [cross talk].
Scott: And LinkedIn. Or go our BIM One website and look at all the different options there for designers, for construction, for owners. Check that out and then you can get a hold of me through that as well.
Gareth: Wonderful. I love the name as well, BIM Jedi. That’s going on your bio for the podcast by the way.
Scott: Yeah. That was from-- I started that years ago when I was teaching and I was using my blog as a teaching platform.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Scott: So, instead of--
Gareth: So you got a blog. We need to get people hooked up with this blog as well.
Scott: Yeah. Well, the blog I haven’t worked on for a long time. It’s more LinkedIn now where I write more around the industry as opposed to teaching in the how-to’s now.
Gareth: So if anybody wanted to find, follow him on LinkedIn, get a look at his content. Thank you very much, Scott.
Scott: Excellent. Thank you for the opportunity. It’s been a pleasure.
Gareth: Talk to you soon.
[End]
