Gareth McGlynn: Ron Deckman, welcome to the Preconstruction Podcast.
Ron Deckman: How are you doing?
Gareth: Good. Very well, thank you. We got Chief MEP Cost Manager from 35 North. Now, Ron, rather than me blabbering on about background, can you give us a quick overview of where you're at now and what you're doing.
Ron: Sure. So, at 35 North, I mainly do MEP cost estimating but I also do some ALC when it's a necessity [inaudible] just because we ware short handed right now on that side. But I've always really enjoyed working my hands. So just getting out the trays and getting into estimate has been a really big thrill for me and be able to build projects in my mind. We have to do that really, I think, to be a good estimator. That's kind of where I'm at right now.
Gareth: And you're 100% right, Ron. I mean, speaking to senior people within preconstruction and and within non residential construction projects on the commercial site, you've got to get out there and build it yourself with your hands and get feet on the ground. You really do tick those boxes. I mean, if I look through your career, six years as a welder, four years of pipe fitter, five years an electrician, two years with an aerospace steel director, and then 11 years as a structural lab manager. Give me an idea, and then before moving on the MEP technician, estimator, and Chief Cost Manager, give me an idea of how important those days were, and which were the most important.
Ron: Well, I started out in the construction trades. I've always been a curious person. So I started out as an ironworker and welder. I think I may have a little ADHD. So, after every few years, when I feel like I got a grasp of that, I want to learn something new. So, by working in each of the different trades, and always observing what goes on around me, I never really hung drywall, but I would watch them hang drywall. I never put up stud walls, but I watch. I never poured concrete or finished concrete, but I would watch it and I watched it forming. So over a period of time working, knowing how long it takes, for instance, to run conduit, pull wire, or put an air handler unit up, any of those things that you do in the trade, it really helps to give you a well-rounded picture of how a construction project comes together. So as I've moved into cost estimating, I started out in the trades, do an MEP estimating for a contractor. And so we have to do very detailed takeoffs because if you miss material, you miss labor. And so you have to capture everything. So, just going through the whole process and then finally getting into 35 North [inaudible] costs manager. We, in the construction world, you're dealing with construction documents. But in cost management, a lot of time you start with a narrative, and maybe a few sketches. So what really helps me is the fact that I've seen everything that goes on in the contract is filling in all those pieces that aren't there in the narrative and knowing that it may not mention that particular label, I know we're gonna need it.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Ron: It helps you put all the parts and pieces into the early conceptual designs, and then schematic design. So that's really been a big help to me.
Gareth: Yeah, I mean, we all know now within commercial construction, everyone is getting together earlier, whether it's the electrician, the mechanical guys or several guys, everyone's getting involved much, much earlier. Collaboration is happening much, much more which is brilliant for the industry and projects are getting ironed out and problems are getting ironed out as early as possible. But take me back as well because I want to touch on the aerospace industry. I've never had someone on the podcast who's come from that industry. What did that teach you that maybe traditional people that went into the construction management degree and continues in commercial construction, what kind of skills did you learn from that industry and what kind of skills did you bring into the likes of 35 North?
Ron: While working for McDonnell Douglas, we developed the C-17 heavy airlifter.
Gareth: Nice.
Ron: And so where I worked was in the test lab. So we built, as you can imagine, our biggest C-17 is we built test vectors that the C-17 would fit into.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Ron: We would have to use hydraulics and to apply loads of the aeroplane and pneumatics. Everything that has an aerospace has to be very precise. We relay strain gauges, thousands and thousands of strain gauges on the aircraft and all that back in those days, appears a little bit more rustic than they are now. Having come out of the trades into management, just having to work with-- I never worked with engineers before. I always worked with my peers. So learning how to work with professional people, that was a learning curve. And then, like I say, the precision working with the Air Force, and with the army, because they both had parts of it, we would have to meet with colonels, go through pages and pages of documents, and every single small detail in those documents, and you had to make sure you capture that. So for me, I guess the best thing I learned from that was how to be very detail-oriented. And that's something that's carried with me now through my career.
Gareth: Brilliant, brilliant. Now, we're gonna go into mentorship. I know it's something close to your heart. We talk about it all the time within construction. We need mentorship now more than ever, because the people coming into the industry, we need to keep them. We need to engage with them. We need to download all the knowledge from people like yourself over 40 years in the industry. It's not easy. We can't just slip a desk out of your head and put put it on to someone else. Who was most important to you when it came to mentoring and what did they teach you and how quickly did it help you develop?
Ron: While I was at McDonnell Douglas, [inaudible] was my director. And as I moved from a union tradesperson into the manager position, I was really floundering at trying to coordinate how all this work. He recognized that I needed help and without me asking, he would come out and just have some casual conversations with me and kind of build up a rapport. And then, he would help me through these steps. He would introduce me to the engineers and helped me see how I needed to communicate with them and for me to be able to listen to them better. And really, without him, I don't know how I wouldn't survive in that world because it was completely foreign to me. So without me asking him, and I didn't I didn't realize he was a mentor at that time but looking back, then he just took me under his wing, and kept me out of trouble. Sometimes at meetings when I start to say something he would kind of interject and get me back on course. So he was just a great guy.
Gareth: Brilliant.
Ron: He also helped me to move up in management. He introduced me to the right people, and was very good at promoting me.
Gareth: Good.
Ron: On my own, it would just not have happened.
Gareth: Brilliant. And that's always not easy. It's probably lead by example. Would that be fair to say?
Ron: Absolutely. He was a great manager and director himself, and he had great communication skills. He was very detail oriented. So everything about him were things that I admired in his abilities. And so, it made me want to be more like him.
Gareth: Actually, I was gonna say, do you see small traits like I see see small traits of me in my parents? Do you see traits that he's taught you and traits in yourself now? Maybe seeing words or statements that he would have said?
Ron: Well, yes. When I was fairly young, I still knew it all. And I was kind of arrogant. And so that's one of the things that really helped me to realize that I really wasn't as good as I thought I was. I didn't really have any real [inaudible] arrogance. And so just some of his comments. And you hear a little bit of sarcasm that, "You know, Robbie, you know, you're the most brilliant guy in the room." And so, I was very [inaudible], "You really got the most brilliant guy in the room."
Gareth: We all need to be told that, Ron.
Ron: Yes. So he had a way of humbling you without making you feel like you've been beat down. So that's an important thing because when you're working with somebody, you're trying to mentor them, trying to guide them softly. I think as you get a lot further than just being a taskmaster. You really have to be able to feel your way around a person and be able to recognize their strengths and their traits, and work with him in a way that-- but first of all they want to be working with you and also it's helpful for him.
Gareth: Brilliant. Yeah. Because I mean, everybody needs-- some people need a kick up the arse. Other people need an arm around the shoulder. It's different personalities, and to be able to deal with that and to directly manage and develop different teams, different ways. It's difficult. And I know a lot of people are given, the younger generation, stick about or they can't be told no. I think there's a way-- they need to be shown by example and also they need to be a little bit more caressed. They need to be cushioned into it because the construction industry, like the aerospace industry, it's difficult. We need to introduce them to slowly rather than throwing them in at the deep end and having them sink and leave the industry. There's a space for everyone, I think. There's that much work out there. There's that many different positions now within construction. There's a space for everyone. But that's interesting on on the mentorship. Do you find yourself now-- I have heard, spoken to a few people within 35 North that believes that you are the shining light when it comes to mentorship, Is there anything specifically that you do to be a good mentor, any kind of secret sauce that you can share with us?
Ron: Well, honestly, I never really thought of myself as a mentor until somebody told me about this meeting I was gonna have. So really, as a bit of hindsight to see what mentor is, but I just found whether as a mentor or in my work trade I was in, there was always somebody who helped me along the way, and we become better welder, better ironworker. or a better electrician. We see better ways of doing things. And it was always through conversation and somebody recognizing where I need improvement, and helping me so when I see areas that somebody else could use some help, and I try to gently help them. And that's just what-- because I've been treated so well in my life, I feel like it's my responsibility to help others get to where they want to go.
Gareth: Yes. Brilliant. And we need more people like that. I mean, looking at your background, and I know that you have a bit of experience teaching. You're an electrical instructor and you're a part of the ABC apprenticeship program for five years. So it's obviously in your DNA to help people and and train people and develop people. And you find, I mean, I know we discussed, I mentioned this before, about the younger generation. How are you finding the next generation coming through? How do you find their attitude towards it? Is there enough of them coming through? What's the personalities like? Is the future bright?
Ron: I think people are people. So, you know, we've had several young people come through. One in particular really wanted to excel. The other person, one of them in particular really just went through what the minimum requirement was. And so it's just been my experience that most people have a varied background. So they come to our company however they've been brought up. And I think that most people are going to be a professional. They want to be the best that they can be. They want to be able to progress. So it's just finding how to connect to them. So, being an old guy and actively, a young guy, I just have to think back when I was young, and try to remember what was it that motivated me and and how the older people connect with me and I try to think of that. So yeah, I have a lot of hope for this generation. I think some of the bad [inaudible] deserve but I don't think you can just broad brush them and say, "Oh, they're all this way." In my generation, there was a lot of guys who had no ambition, no drive, and wanted to be taken care of. I think it's just because of social media and more of awareness that we think this generation may be less motivated. But I [inaudible] as I had it really good in my experience.
Gareth: Yeah, yeah. I totally agree with you. I love what you're saying about everyone's different, everyone's got different circumstances. Nobody really understands the journey that they've come from, and what they're experiencing right now. The only way you can find out is sit down, talk to them, get the common ground, and ask questions. But it's always something that we talk to our people about and our candidates, young candidates especially is ask questions. There's never a silly question that to ask and it's the only way to learn and learn fast.
Ron: That's right. You got to make sure that they're asking questions, even if you think, "You should know that." You don't want to come across that way. You don't want to be so critical sometimes of somebody that you discourage them either. So, that really fine line is trying to bring the knowledge they need to have without beating them down the process.
Gareth: That's it. Yeah. And I think your mentor, as you said, leading by example is the best way to do it, and showing them how it's done because everybody's different with different personalities. Everybody gets information from a client or a subcontractor in different ways. But if they know what the right information is to get, then they can do it on their own, using their own skills and their own personality. I do know that MEP is one of the most difficult skills and trades, and parts of a commercial construction. I know you've done a lot of life sciences, a lot of labs. When it comes to MEP, what is it that makes it so important when it comes to a cost perspective?
Ron: Well, without MEP, nothing else was gonna be functionable in the building. So, if you don't know how long to heat it, or you don't know how to cool, if you don't have lights, and you can't flush the toilet, well, they're going to be pretty much useless to you. So, capturing all that in the MEP world is really important. One of the things that I've found about MEP drawings compared to ASC drawings is how a certain information is not there because they assume you know it. So it's really important to be able to comb your way through that and see what's missing and go with the ED.
Gareth: Yeah, I mean, that's not taking it for granted is the biggest thing. But again, it's asking questions that you think is a stupid question when actually, in fact, it's a really important question. And then the MEP side of life sciences and labs, I mean, it's pretty evident through your projects over the last four or five years, they've played a big part. How complex are they and where do you see, what sort of mistakes are you seeing specifically from an MEP side? What things can people look out for?
Ron: Well, everything is becoming more complex, BMS systems, BMS controls, electrical panels, digital breakers, and everything is just becoming more and more complex. And, if you don't keep up with that, you're really going to start falling behind. And particularly in labs, there's a lot of different systems like for water and different lab gases, walkable ceilings, you know, all these things that go into that or have to have the filtering in your in your ductwork. Just everything about labs is much more complicated and with that comes an exponential increase in the costs of things that you might not think about if you're looking at a grill for a school and they look at a grill with a HEPA filter in it for a lab. It can be 10 to 15 times more expensive. If you have 30 of those and you've missed that, that's a huge, huge cost.
Gareth: And that said, if you leave it out, you end up winning the project.
Ron: And needless to say, whoever misses the most gets the job.
Gareth: That's it, exactly right. And just on that, you mentioned keeping up with all the different products and all the different technologies. How do you do that? Have you got like a channel that you keep up to date or people that keep you up to date? Or is that something that you do internally at 35 North?
Ron: I did it two ways. Because I came out of the construction industry, I still have friends back there. So I periodically check in with him and say, "Well, what do you see? What are some of the trends that you're seeing?" Sometimes I see something in a drawing that I don't recognize or I'm not sure what it is [inaudible]. The internet is a great resource. I go in there, I Google things, and then some of those trade journals but most of that I get is through talking with other people in the trade that are in it right now or they're actually constructing it so that they're pretty much up to speed where the new changes are.
Gareth: Brilliant. Again, it just shows you how important your network is in keeping keeping up to date with people. And that works two ways. I mean, you obviously give them some added value from a cost management point of view, or a construction management point of view. So valuable in the network. And I know the document online, this kind of ties into what we were discussing, the challenges of accurate cost estimating. So there's a lot of things that can kind of come into play here but what I wanted to speak about is preconstruction technology. How important is it becoming technology within cost management, cost estimating?
Ron: Well, because that initial stage often sets the budget for the job. A lot of times our [inaudible] will tell the customer this is our budget, 35 million, and then we come into it sometimes after they've already made that commitment. So, when we get a chance to look things over and say, you know, that's really gonna be more like 40 million. They don't like that. So we have to be able to show them why it's 40 million, and not 35. Had the correct tools been in place, I would have been able to give them a detailed estimate that shows what's happening and then show the environmental trends that are affecting costs like escalation, labor shortages, and disruptions in the supply chain. All these things that are going on right now are really making that much more complex and if you don't stay on top of it, for instance, I just got a price on a chiller. And well, the inflation rate for this year is supposed to be around 90%, the inflation rate on the chiller was 30%. So, you know, it's another linear thing. If you don't stay up with manufacturers and state so that when you get ready to give somebody a entry level cost basis, you can't go back three months later, the price is up. It just doesn't work anymore. So you really have to keep everything up to date.
Gareth: And that's hard, Ron. I mean, we all know that oil and gas is expensive and getting more expensive. So manufacturing this stuff, supplying it, and transporting it, but 30%, mercy. I mean, is there-- and listen, we're not going to name names, but I think a lot of people that are kind of bogging their arm on here and trying to make a few quid and using it as an excuse. That's a big increase.
Ron: It is and I looked at the cost of air handlers, a switchgear, and a lot of the big manufactured MEP equipment that you're looking at has gone up exponentially higher than inflation rates. Some things in 2020 have doubled in price. And where you used to be able to switch gear in 12 to 15 weeks, now it's 10 to 12 months. You can do an air handler in 16 to 18 weeks now to year. Generators are taking over. For larger generators, like a one megawatt it could be a year, maybe a year and three or four months just to get it. So nobody wants to give you a price because they know that they're not gonna start making it until this year and it's not going to be done for another year. They have to try to get a hold whether their cost increase is gonna be internally. And so they have to project what that cost is going to be. In my experience so far has been that their costs have gone down and their price hasn't.
[Laughter]
Ron: Once they go up, they'd certainly raise their price or hold their price anymore.
Gareth: So ideally, right Ron, you get a client now and said, all right, I want to build this $40 million plant. Let say it's a lab. And it's going to take us a year. Obviously, you're putting into the schedule, the conceptual design prices. I mean, it can't go up anymore, so are we going to see something come down in price by 10 or 15 percent in a year? I mean, obviously, that would be the nice thing to happen. But everyone is gauging on the high ends. They don't want to be sitting and holding the ball during more escalating prices. That must be very difficult to navigate. And obviously collaboration, we talked about at the start. Is that the most important part here?
Ron: Well, if I understand your question, I lived through the Nixon era of inflation, then The Carter years where interest rates went up to 22% [inaudible]. And it just killed a lot of interest rates across the Northwest, especially for lumber. And so things go up and they always come down, but they don't tend to come down to a previous level. They come down to a new high. So right now, I think we have two things. If I knew the answer, I'm probably buy a lot more particular stocks to [crosstalk] [inaudible]. But either the inflation rate is going to keep going up because our Congress doesn't seem to care, it doesn't matter if Democrat or Republican, they don't understand anything about fiscal responsibility. So I think that's gonna keep pushing inflation, but with the Feds raising the interest rates, it's either going to slow the economy or stall the economy. So, if it stalls that I think we're gonna see prices come down. But if it doesn't, I think prices are gonna keep going up. And if nothing changes, I think it's gonna keep going up just like it is, you know, 10 to 12 percent a year. Real inflation rate is probably around 16%. We don't measure things the way the government does, you know. If you bought a 16 ounce bottle of ketchup for $3 and now it's a 12-ounce bottle of catsup for $3, and so, there's no price increase. Well, there isn't what you're getting four ounces less. [Laughter] If you need a 10-foot 2x4's, you can't go buy an eight footer because it's cheaper. You have to buy the 10 footer. So you got to pay the price for the 10 footer. So, in construction, we're really in the real world of pricing, not in the fairytale world.
Gareth: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. How do you deal that with the client? I mean, obviously, you're a chief MEP, I would imagine you're having these conversations all the time.
Ron: They don't like to hear that inflation rate is what it is. But I found that you can usually-- if I can give them quotes, and I didn't show him how things have gone up on everything and say, "Look. This is what's actually happening. This is the cost of pipe and wire six months ago, this is the cost of it now." So, if you can show him these things, they may not like it, but they accept it. The problem with customers, especially the universities and colleges, you know, they have a budget. They put the building up that they got back in 2019. And they're ready to build it in 2023, but they're gonna try and build the same building in 2019 dollars. So,it's far so long to go back and downscale to a bank in square footages or the bank try and find more money, but as long as you have hard data, there are some who understand.
Gareth: Brilliant. And that is the next thing on my next question. Preconstruction data and data in general, is that something that that you collect yourself or do you rely on data sources?
Ron: Well, we do both. Every time we get a quote or anything, we store that so we know what that is. Then I get real-time, monthly pricing from different wholesalers. So, I know how to do this. I know what different things are. I keep that track. So we have our own internal but I also look at RSMeans and RSMeans, people will love it or hate it. But the fact is they do a lot of study, and they do a pretty good job updating their prices quarterly. You can do it by region, you can do it by organized labor or an open shop. And they really do a pretty good job. They don't have maybe all the-- if you're looking at their hand, it may not have all the bells and whistles you're looking for or whatever, but I think I mostly just had a bad source. And I have found whenever I've hada -- when I was in the contracting world, trying to justify a price with a client, if I fell within the RSMeans guidelines, I hardly hear any argument. They're not always perfect, though. They could be high, they could be a little bit gentle as a rule of thumb or not bad.
Gareth: Yeah. But I mean, the idea of getting in between three and five percent on a conceptual estimate, those days are are hard to come by at the moment.
Ron: They are [inaudible]. I'd like to be more around 20% on a conceptual estimate. Especially because a lot of times, they're not even sure what they want. They want a good price, but they're not sure what they want.
[Laughter]
Gareth: It's like shooting in the dark.
Ron: Yeah. They'll say, "Why is the price so high?" I'd say, "Well, where's your design? And I can tell you a lot of [inaudible]." That's why it's so high, because I've designed it in my mind. And maybe what I'm thinking of what you're thinking through everything, so give it a plus or minus 20%. Usually, we're going to be in that range at the very early stages.
Gareth: Perfect. And then you get them to build in 20% contingent or just so that...
Ron: Or that's what I call design contingency is 20%. Yeah, it's 20%. And then they're usually okay with that.
Gareth: Good. Yeah, that's not bad.
Ron: They know that they're given us many that information.
Gareth: Yeah, yeah.
Ron: They expect it because if they don't know what they want, they really can't ask you the price and everything accurately. [Inaudible]
Gareth: Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. Love it. Listen, I don't think that escalating prices in the supply chain, I don't think it's going to get any bit better anytime soon. I think that will come to a head now once inflation starts going up. So thank you. I hope it just levels out. If I can bring you back, Ron, now MEP. What do you do on a day to day basis when, and I know it's probably a lot of what we discussed, but as a chief MEP cost manager because there'll be a lot of MEP, both mechanical, electrical, piping plumbing, they'll be listening to this and going, "You know what? I would strive to be like, Ron. I want to grow my career and end up at that level." What's involved at your level on a day to day?
Ron: Well, it isn't just work. Of course, I do a lot of estimating. But I also worked with a team. I review their work and we check pricing together, a lot of meetings with customers. I help develop proposals. So, there's a lot of things that go along with it and then, of course, like every person I haven't directly report to. So, as we all communicate with that person, I found that if you give him a at least a daily briefing, just a short briefing like here's where we are, it gives them some peace of mind that, hey, we're on track or a you know, we're gonna need a pump some more hours in the [inaudible]. It's just really a matter of being able to work with a group and making sure that I'm looking at the schedule far enough ahead. So as as I see, we're stacking up on jobs trying to prioritize which job we're gonna do first, or how we're going to dice that job up for different people that work on different different portions. The easiest part sometimes is estimating.
Gareth: Yeah. Because that's what you're looking-- that's what you're used to and that's what you're best at. Yeah. But as you say, you've obviously picked up the skills of management communication throughout your career. And it's funny too, MEP and I asked you earlier about ways it's so important, but there's probably a big lack of MEP estimators out there and even, I mean, that's MEP, even if you break it down into mechanical estimators, electrical estimators, and piping and plumbing, they're hard to come by. I just would like to see more of a focus going into training these people and getting people into MEP because it really can come down to make and break the profitability of a project.
Ron: And, you know, not everybody can be an MEP estimator. Because everybody doesn't have that way of thinking. I don't know if MEP is harder than ASC because I do ASC take off. For me, if you're really good at [inaudible], that's easier. I think it's a matter of perspective. I think the harder thing about MEP is that you really have to know a lot of theory. You can't just know what's on the drawing. If they tell you, you have a 3000 switchgear and you got a 400 amp panel, double [inaudible]panels, and 1000 amp panel, you have to be able to calculate what your fitter are sizes are because they're not there initially. Well, if you don't know how to do those calculations, you're kind of stuck in the water. If you don't know how this-- if you know this [inaudible] of a building, but you don't know the CFM rate on your air handlers, you have to know how how am I going to [inaudible] air changes I need per hour? How many CFM do I need to accomplish that? So, there's a lot of things behind that, that you have to know. And that's something that you can just pick it up in six months or a year? You know, I think some of the things that we're going to see it's pretty cut and dry. One you know how to put up drywall or a stud wall, you know how to do it, you know. You move on. There's no theory behind it. You figure out square foot and away you go. So MEP, you really can't just square foot things. You really have to be able to know what those systems are and what they consist of in order to price them, and you may have to develop those early on. If they don't tell you the ampacity of the switchgear, then you have to look at the building and figure out how many [inaudible] you need per square foot, you have to back away into it. And then the last thing to do is put an 800 amp panel board and find out you need a 4000 switchgear. So all those things are part of that knowledge base at which takes time to develop.
Gareth: Yeah. And again, like MEP, nobody goes to universities and studies MEP. You've got to have either mechanical or electrical. You're going to be stronger on one side. Not everyone's got the background of Ron Deckman. He's been been there and done it on quite a few different industries. So, that obviously comes in there as well. I mean, it's something that we we come across all the time. People call themselves MEP estimators, but an actual fact they're electrical estimators, and they've dabbled a little bit in mechanical or vice versa.
Ron: Or you can say, we have somebody doing those right now. I not going to say her name now but [inaudible] earns it. She came out of the [inaudible] Walmart, place like that. She doesn't take off for electrical. So she came to us, pretty rudimentary in her understanding, but she really wanted to learn. So one of the things I found was, you know, there's theory books and there's a lot of things now on YouTube like-- she didn't know that [inaudible] came in 10-foot lengths. So, she watched videos on how you'd run a conduit. So, she learned. Even though she's ever been in the trade, you can go on YouTube, and you can see how it's been done a lot better than I did explain it to somebody. I think that's really a helpful tool now for people coming into any trade, MEP, to be able to go and look and see, how do you install an air handler? And there's a video on that. How you put in sanitary sewer piping? There's a video on that. So all those things are there for somebody who's hungry and wants to learn. It's available for you.
Gareth: Right now it's [crosstalk] [inaudible].
Ron: [Crosstalk] [inaudible] here's a little guidance from a mentor, you might say, that just got to fill in the spots for you.
Gareth: Yeah, I mean, before [inaudible] from, everyone had to put on the hard hat, put on the welly boots, and head out on the site. But because I know you're a big fan of site visits, I heard there's some rumors going around 35 North that you slept in a car overnight for a site visit first thing in the next morning. Some crazy dedication there.
Ron: Well, I know those guys. I like to drive. When I was living [inaudible], we're gonna live in the states and sometimes I drive 12 hours to the job site. I drive all night to get to the job site and go to work in the morning. So the drive is okay with me. But the value of doing a reconditioning or remodel or renovation of the existing site, going there and seeing the site is practical to be of extreme value and worth a night in a car. The things you're gonna see that you're not gonna see on a drawing.
Gareth: That's right. Yeah. And not only that, what you see as well and what you experienced during that site visit, that's gonna stay with you your whole career. You ain't gonna forget that. Whereas, you're not going to remember every drawing that you look at.
Ron: Right. What is in your mind visually, it's stays. If you like [inaudible] you take some pictures and it can refresh your memory.
[Laughter]
Gareth: The [inaudible] disposable camera and coming around, does that kind of lead into the likes of BIM? The importance of BIM and technology?
Ron|: When I was in the trade, we didn't have BIM. And so electricians are always the first one kicked out of a space because sanitary sewer comes first. It's gonna roll downhill. And then you gotta have room for the ductwork. Ductwork is ductwork. It's got to be there. And then we're in there. So, maybe ahead of time, you put your piping in [inaudible] to take it out and move it. So now they have been [inaudible]. That will be worked out before the guys of trades get out there. They know where to run their pipes and know where to put the ductwork. And that to me, that's one thing that saves a lot of time on a project and also is less frustrating for the trades people. And it in the long run, it saves the contractors money.
Gareth: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, how nice is that, especially as a fitter, to be able to know exactly. There's not going to be clashes, you know. You go and you do your work. There's no real decisions to be made but our minor decisions, and you can get out there and go to the next project. But yeah, it's been invaluable. Yeah, a hundred percent. So, Ron, I'm conscious of your time, because I know you're a busy guy. And you've got lots going on at the minute. I want to thank you very much. I know Karen kind of put us in touch and talked very highly of you as a mentor and someone who's developed her over the last four or five years. But I can see what what she loves about you. And thank you very much.
Ron: Well, thank you. Appreciate this opportunity.
Gareth: And what I'll do is, well, I always ask people-- there'll be a lot of people listening to this,Ron, that might have a question, way more technical than I can answer. Is there any where that they're able to contact you or connect with you? Do you do much on LinkedIn?
Ron: I'm on LinkedIn. But that's about all I can say about it. The best way to get a hold of me is email me.
Gareth: Cool. No worries.
Ron: Our email address is available. They just email me rdeckman@35North.com.
Gareth: Super. I'll put it on--
Ron: @35n.com.
Gareth: Super. I'll put it on the show notes below. So when it's on iTunes and Spotify, and YouTube, they'll be able to quickly grab it if they've got any questions because I'm sure you'll hit a chord with a lot of people listening, both on the client side,on the contractor, and subcontractor side. Unless we could have talked here all day, maybe we will do another one in six or 12 months and see how things are going.
Ron: All right. Well, thank you very much. It's a very enjoyable talking to you.
Gareth: Thank you, Ron. All the best.
Ron: Bye.
[End]
