Gareth McGlynn [00:00:04] Welcome to the preconstruction podcast. Great news, everyone. Commercial construction in the U.S. is back! That along with the lifting of restrictions, means we are well on the road to recovery. So great news. Anyway, today’s podcast is with fellow Irishman Martin Walsh, who is currently the V.P. of development for Sonic Automotive in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Gareth McGlynn [00:00:30] He is also the former national V.P. of mission critical for Balfour Beatty. In this episode, we discuss within great detail how a young engineer in Ireland continually challenged himself and developed into becoming a real leader within the design build world here in the U.S.. Just before we jump into the chat with Martin, I want to tell you about our sponsor Beck Technology, who are a leading preconstruction software technology firm based in Dallas, Texas. If you have not come across the DESTINI estimating software, I highly recommend going to their website and running through their demo.
Gareth McGlynn [00:01:13] As always, enjoy the podcast. Stay safe and we’ll speak to you soon.
Gareth McGlynn [00:01:22] Martin Walsh, How’re you? Welcome to The Preconstruction Podcast.
Martin Walsh [00:01:25] Hey, how’re you doing Gareth? Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.
Gareth McGlynn [00:01:29] No problem, we might have to get some subtitles if this gets this Irish accents come out very strong. Yes.
Martin Walsh [00:01:37] Hopefully mine is a bit softer after 22 years over here in the US. Good. So you just only goal one twenty four years.
Gareth McGlynn [00:01:49] Whenever we were for the audience, we were talking off line just briefly about a few things and I could hear a creeping back. I would never have thought. Twenty two years. Nine.
Martin Walsh [00:01:59] Yeah. No, it doesn’t belong gong very exact.
Gareth McGlynn [00:02:03] Well, listen, I’ve been trying to get you on for a while.
Gareth McGlynn [00:02:07] The latest to have. I just want it can get go all the way back to your time in Ireland.
Gareth McGlynn [00:02:13] Obviously you started in Galway. Take us back way, way Galway. I know you’re a Mayo man by heart, why Galway and also why construction? Is it is it a generational thing within your family?
Martin Walsh [00:02:28] Sure. So I think, you know, starting out like construction, I kind of grew up on a farm in the West of Ireland. And basically, you know, went to secondary school and showed an aptitude towards the construction side of things in in the basically went to a technical school and coach Ma for four years. And then, you know, the principal there recognized an aptitude to go into engineering, which I didn’t even know an engineer was, you know, back in secondary school. But then I did some research. And really, I think that done back then, you kind of took a leap of faith because, you know, no, my parents were engineers or, you know, college educated. So it was a bit of a leap of faith trust the more the teachers that career guidance counselors were telling you. I did have an aptitude for technical drawing, battledore woodwork, construction studies, you know, mathematics, physics, you know, all that type of subject matter. So, you know, basically did the same as all other people did back then and apply to the CIO. And you got lucky and got into, you know, what’s today known as NYG Back then UCG, which I person preferred that name better. But anyways, so I think, you know, ended up going in there and, you know, even when I was in there, you know, the interesting thing back then, the way that college degrees apart. There wasn’t a lot of practical experience. So I ended up with the lead in to, you know, how I ended up in the US. I ended up going to the US in my summers at college to work and end up working on construction sites and really enjoyed that. And so I still didn’t fully understand, you know, what what engineer was at first. You know, as far as how it fit into the grand scheme of the ecosystem. But then by the time I left Galway, you know, I had a good handle on it and ended up, you know, working there in Galway, right out of college for little bits. And then, you know, after about six or eight months working there, I got moved over to London and worked there on what really, really was a foundational project for for for my career, really, because it was a historical renovation in a meat market not far from the Old Bailey there a lot of historical area and just the level of detail and the level of attention to safety, attention to planning that really was needed because of the proximity to an underground train tunnel. And all the entities involved in getting that job done was really transformational and thought me a lot, probably just more than I even learned at college. And all the psychology lurked the problem solving skills, you know, all the engineering side of things. But when it came to how to apply that in the real world, the project in London really was a foundational job that I think sticks to this day.
Gareth McGlynn [00:05:22] Brilliant. Yeah. I mean, when it one an experience as well, obviously, anybody that doesn’t know new agey because the university was one of the leading universities in Ireland and then obviously moving to London.
Gareth McGlynn [00:05:35] Was it always an idea of construction that would allow you to travel? I mean, it’s as if you had an appetite for traveling even to do that. Summer interns in the U.S.?
Martin Walsh [00:05:46] Well, my parents had lived in Philadelphia for eight to 10 years, you know, around the time I was born to when I was four years old. So my two brothers were born in Philadelphia. And so we moved back to Ireland, where it’s time for me to go to school. So we did. We had a lot of ties with the U.S. as a family. A lot of friends would come every summer from the US. My aunt lived there for my whole life pretty much. And so, you know, it was pretty natural sort of progression to go there.
Martin Walsh [00:06:17] Again, we’re talking back pre Celtic Tiger times when a lot of people with college degrees left Ireland. I mean, it was a brain drain, right. Of the 80s and 90s. And, you know, so it wasn’t unusual. Well, we traveled we had to travel to work and make money. It wasn’t like today where a lot of the younger folks are very fortunate that they could actually travel to enjoy themselves, which is a difference and time in a short period of time, really. So to me, I enjoy the lifestyle of the US. Those summers I was here. I enjoy the opportunities that I thought were here. And so I wanted to take a crack at it, you know. And so ultimately, you know, ultimately, you know, my my now wife and, you know, we ended up moving to California together and basically, you know, started from scratch there because, you know, move to Sacramento area, which is where her brother happened to live at the time. But I had no contacts whatsoever. That was a that was a rude awakening for a youngster from from Ireland who really only ever been around Irish culture and Irish people, even when I was abroad. And so that really jumpstarted me. And to have to grow up is the best way I can put it to you and Lily. Back then, the email hadn’t really taken off. Even at that point. So you were faxing. It resonates. You were, you know, making phone calls, trying to get some to pick the phone up. And, you know, back then, nobody even did see, you know, university calls Galway on the resident there, like, what the hell is this?
Martin Walsh [00:07:50] You know, and so they would call you back.
Gareth McGlynn [00:07:53] There was a lot as you were just hoping that there was an Irish guy and the officer and the companies were hired by Jaida.
Martin Walsh [00:08:02] But the biggest thing is it taught me, you know, really the need to really have a single mindedness to what you’re doing and a belief in yourself, because it’s very easy to get discouraged. And those times I probably did get discouraged. And, you know, you can’t get down yourself. You have to keep going. And, you know, ultimately, I got a break and got working for a company called Tart Pacific out there. There are basically a vertically integrated precast manufacturing and installation engineering company.
Martin Walsh [00:08:34] And for me, that was the perfect mix because it was technical engineering, it was technical planning, a lot of drafting, a lot of, you know, making sure things fit together properly. It wasn’t just drawing to draw mean stuff, had to fit together. And then we were you know, we’re overhauling a lot of processes at the time because high rises were just starting to get built again in California, post the two big earthquakes in order to age or quake in L.A. and, you know, the the Bay Area, one of eighty nine. And so basically, they in the cities are trying to figure out how to build high rises again. Precast was the primary exterior envelope that when all these buildings got to work on 40 storey buildings back in the late 90s, it was just a great experience, you know. So but just again, taught me a lot of a process, a lot about attention to detail. All the things are really foundational in my mind to being successful in this business.
Gareth McGlynn [00:09:31] But also, Martin, I mean, if you think of your experience in London, that historical renovation, unbelievable insight into the detail of interiors and also the renovations. But then you go on, are you able to put on your resume a 40 storey high rate in California?
Gareth McGlynn [00:09:47] I mean, a great insight into the different types of delivery types, different types of project. Was that the common kind of time?
Gareth McGlynn [00:09:57] He said, you know what, I prefer this type of grind up high rates? Or were you more of an interiors guy?
Martin Walsh [00:10:07] I think I like all of this. I think to me is the process that I like.
Martin Walsh [00:10:13] It’s the challenge of figuring out how to make things more efficient, how to how to make sure things are buttoned up and executed at a high level. Really, what resonates with me more than the actual product type. And one thing I’ve learned is it’s important to get a diverse product type on your resumé because you never know what’s going to happen in the economy. Which markets are going to be hot. And, you know, so I’ve been I’ve been fortunate. I’ve gotten to work in, you know, hotels, office, schools, data centers, you know, like a little bit of microchip for contest floors and central plants. So, you know, no car dealerships. So I think the process is what will get you through if you have an approach that’s consistent and that’s a problem solving approach and a positive approach into getting things done. Because then the day, because some businesses get it done business and yes, you know, you need to be able to have all relationships and all that to get things done. And, you know, that’s that’s what it comes down to. So I think the one thing I think the education system Arland really helped with, you know, is the way it was taught, you know, and I think still is for the most part, even in the secondary schools and colleges, you know, really get gives a young person a top notch education that can stand up with anybody in the world to meet some of the stuff and some of the engineers narcotics I’ve had the opportunity to sit down with and develop projects. You know, it’s it’s truly worlds, you know, world class folks. And, you know, then the day, you know, the education system in really was a huge part of giving me those opportunities. Now, you had to go yourself and build upon that. But, you know, if you didn’t have that education behind you and that ability to solve problems, you wouldn’t be able to go to reward enough to do everyday. Right?
Gareth McGlynn [00:12:09] I totally agree with you, Martin. I mean, I’ve you’ve worked in London. I worked in Australia, in the construction market in New York and the construction market before my recruitment days. But I think the education system, we don’t appreciate and understand how good it is until we travel. But also, if you kind of package that up with our personality or networking ability, our ability to socialize and network and get into a commonality with other construction workers, Irish people tend to do very well.
Gareth McGlynn [00:12:40] The one thing that holds them back, and I don’t know if you would you would agree with me, is we’re not as confident a bunch as the rest of the world.
Martin Walsh [00:12:51] I think for the most part, I think it’s it falls into two books that I think is either people are having an anonymous not the confidence piece, but I think it’s just that outward brashness that sometimes especially need here in the United States to kind of sometimes get through. Right. You know. But I think, you know, I think the other parts, the that sometimes we could come across a lack of confidence that even myself had when I first started out is is. The education system teaches us to be competitive, right? We have to, you know, we have to get points. We’re competing, competing, competing, competing through college. All these things. But the one thing it doesn’t give you the probably the biggest lesson I had to learn and the fact I’m still learning it to this day is the importance of interpersonal relationships in the business. It’s not always about being right and wrong and making somebody else look bad because they didn’t know what size rebar to put in a column or whatever. It’s OK. How do you solve the problem in the most correct way that you don’t basically torpedo the whole team?
Martin Walsh [00:14:05] Is that is that is probably one thing that, you know, we didn’t get in our and the way that we’re educated because, again, you know, we’ve been taught to fight. We’ve been taught to scratch, claw, get through, get it done type of thing, which are all attributes you need to have. But you need to be able to overlay that with the interpersonal side, not something you know. I’ve been fortunate that I have had some great mentors that have taken an edge off me. That was very, very rough when I first came here. Just not refined. Not you couldn’t put me in a room with an engineer or architect when I first started out here, because, you know, it would just be, you know, productive.
Gareth McGlynn [00:14:46] Let’s call it up. Yeah. So I just want to quickly, Martin, jump back to when you first arrived in California, speaking from experience.
Gareth McGlynn [00:14:55] When you look at the new area or a new country, it’s really difficult to get the right position right away because of your network isn’t as big as it should be. Jump in at the first job that that becomes available. Let’s offer decent money. How did you navigate that situation?
Martin Walsh [00:15:13] Yeah, well, some of that was forced on me. So I guess, you know, just because of not having connections. Right. So I think I was kind of a fortunate outcome. But because I thought I wanted to go to, you know, kind of what I’d been doing in Ireland and another. And it turns out that basically waiting six months and see, I know I did have to take a job to get by. Right. So, you know, you have to remember back in that time slot, like you’re flush with cash. So you have to you have to leave. And so there was times where I went to a range of emotions because, you know, you are going through a changing country. So there’s homesickness. There’s all those sorts of things. You know, they’re just going on that affect your your your mindset.
Martin Walsh [00:15:55] But I did take a temporary job at Environmental Area Company through a temp agency and went in and hated every minute. I mean, I couldn’t stand the job.
Martin Walsh [00:16:07] But at the same time, you know, you got to do what you gotta do. Right. Certain point in time. So, you know, again, it goes back to the quality, the degree I got. I was qualified to go in and do these environmental reports. It was back in the time when all of the gas stations here in the United States were getting rid of underground storage tanks and do the radiation. And so it was a bunch of testing, analyzing, you know, soil reports and, you know, contaminants and all that stuff.
Martin Walsh [00:16:34] So it was interesting, just wasn’t for me. And so but again, it’s it just taught me, you know, day to day, looking back, I didn’t baby realize it fully at the time, but it did teach me patients and the importance of sticking with something and staying the course stink conflict yourself, because there was definite times where I was trying to find work and couldn’t get a bite. That definitely the conference took up, took the whack. But then when I got the job that I got a chart Pacific again. If you don’t know them, look them up.
Martin Walsh [00:17:10] They just did the Apple headquarters most recently out there. All the structural work on it’s they’ve from a great you know, it was much smaller when I was there. They are today, but they are great family run business and a great family. And, you know, they really took me under the wings and took care of me. And Ray taught me a lot. But technically and personally, that really changed the trajectory of my whole career, basically in my life, you know, so to speak, because really there were patients who hit me when a lot of other people might have fired me.
Martin Walsh [00:17:42] Just some of the rough edges, you know, that, you know, comes tomorrow and how construction sites work in Ireland versus how they work here and meetings or in Ireland, contractors and architects versus here.
Martin Walsh [00:17:55] It’s a different world on how the conversations go and how the interactions go. And I’m very, very fortunate that, you know, Bob Tark, you know, really took me under his wing and really gave me great opportunities. And, you know, I progressed up from a project engineer when I went in there. And once the day I went in there, my project manager there was my boss at the time, bought a set of plans and put them on my desk and said, you’re going to. L.A. for six months and two weeks. So get ready.
Martin Walsh [00:18:27] OK.
Martin Walsh [00:18:29] So ended up doing the double world headquarters at Westlake Village town just north of Los Angeles. You know, so that was a whole new world of just traveling and just, you know, seeing all these different job sites since I was 14. I got to work on Jobs and Wilshire Boulevard in Los Angeles, downtown San Francisco. We just things that, you know, even at the time, I didn’t fully appreciate being honest just for the opportunities that were looking back. There are just tremendous foundational projects for, you know, for my home to equates Kodesh to my career, you know.
Gareth McGlynn [00:19:01] So Just shows you, Bob, your project managers, they obviously saw something in those two or three weeks say that, listen, Martin can handle this. I’m sure they don’t do that with everyone. I mean, literally and end on the job, end of the deep end. You’re going to Larry, you’re going to sink or swim. But obviously you’ve progressed. And I was going to ask you about a topic that’s going on as project engineer didn’t have anything for its senior project. My. I mean, give us an idea of the Kikes lab, both sides of the project. You were running a senior.
Martin Walsh [00:19:32] Yeah. I mean, some of it was, you know, just opportunity. Right. Happen to be timing. Right. You know, the economy was good. The dot com boom was there. So it was just work was flown in the door. So some of it was out of necessity, right.
Martin Walsh [00:19:46] That they had to anyone that was showing any sort of positives, energy and positive impact on their business. They were gonna give you the opportunity. Right. And they’re an engineering based company, so which is a lot different. A lot of contractors here, the US, our Pacific is an engineering based company and engineers at all levels of that company is their mindset. Right. So it’s a it’s a very precision planning type of company, which suited me from production all the way to execution in the field.
Martin Walsh [00:20:20] So I think they, you know, you know, progressed up, you know, ended up doing a as a project manager, I ended up doing the work and as a partnership with another project manager on a very, very complicated federal courthouse in Bakersfield, California. And that we probably spent a year on that. It was so complicated. You’re doing a bomb blast requirement. I mean, it was just a very, very tough job and it was a tough job for the company. And so, you know, myself and the other p.m. worked under a project executive, and it was it challenging at times for all of us. But, you know, I think that job show Bob Carr that, you know, myself and DLP had what it took to be senior leaders in this company as he was growing this company rapidly. And so from that that that project’s scale wise, I mean, precast wise, I can remember it.
Martin Walsh [00:21:15] I bet you that was every bit of it. 200, 300 million dollar courthouse. I mean, it was a big, big job. Wow. It’s from a general contractor perspective. Yeah. And you’ve got you know, that I ended up, you know, the CPM working on the St. Regis Hotel downtown San Francisco for a two storey building.
Martin Walsh [00:21:35] You know, we ended up a tower facility do routinely today, but we did the first job we’ve ever done where we’d actually put the glass into the precast panels at a glass factory and shipped everything into the side, priede legs to figure out how many how many windows were broken on the way, didn’t break a windows. You believe it? It was unbelievable. We planned it. We planned it that well and we didn’t have to touch. It’s a pretty complicated job. And you’ve got to work with Leo, Charles Messel and, you know, is more an architect and just developing that job. And so just, you know, it’s very lucky, again, you know, how we were able to ask these things. So, yeah, then I worked on, you know, residential project, a wheelchair boulevard’s. I worked another twenty eight story, twenty five story building, something like that, you know. So just some good sized projects worked on a Caltrans headquarters down in San Diego, which another truck are just great, you know, at the time, leaders just becoming good. That was a very sustainable project. So, you know, there’s a lot of a lot of cool different types of shapes and sizes of projects, all their own challenges. But it was fun because you had to integrate precision building planning with precision up construction, operational planning from cranes to trucks, getting in logistics plans, all those sorts of things. So it all it all worked for for where my passions lie.
Gareth McGlynn [00:23:01] Good. And then that’s your career up until then. Seemed to be very focused on the operational things. Listen, we know that preconstruction scheduling, logistics procurement when you moved into a project executive role with Harvard. Right. Is that. Was that your first kind of insight into preconstruction? Give us an idea of how that role.
Martin Walsh [00:23:23] Yeah, it probably started at the end of Tark Pacific doing more of that, because as a CPM, you had to support the estimate department in developing a strategy for a conceptual building. And so that’s kind of where I started. But really getting into the preconstruction, getting it estimating specific was at Howard s right. And I was very fortunate, again, you know, at the time. But Howard is right. The company was working on breaking down barriers between offices. And, you know, it was I was lucky that, you know, our CIO at the time, Dell fellow had brought his senior pre Congi Bill Johnson down from Oregon. And again, Bill and I just clicked. And so Bill really thought be a lot can help me build a good foundation in preconstruction. I wouldn’t say I’m an estimated by any stretch of the imagination officially. But again, you know, even Irelands you know, there’s a lot of engineers that come out, especially civil engineers that come out of college that do end up working for contractors in the preconstruction side. I think, again, it’s just because of the aptitude and the ability to visualize things and measure things and then put, you know, put dollars or pounds or euros to me now.
Martin Walsh [00:24:33] So, you know, so I think that’s. That, you know, was, again, just another another. I was always one that always put my mindset to I wanted to learn everything I could about all aspects of whatever business I was in. I mean, that’s just always been my mindset is my mindset today. And, you know, now it extends into different facets of the business. But it’s it’s the same thing. It’s an inquisitive nature. And I think that’s what kind of drives me to learn these things and become good at a.
Gareth McGlynn [00:25:05] Yeah, because from that position then with a hardass, right? Going from that position into V.P. of national mission-critical over a ball for beedi, a design build firm for data centers.
Gareth McGlynn [00:25:19] A how did that role come about? B. I mean, look at it from the outside. And that that looks like a big jump. That looks like you were going from something you were very comfortable with into something in the preconstruction side. And also the data center, say mission-critical design build.
Gareth McGlynn [00:25:36] It sounds as if you backed yourself big time there.
Martin Walsh [00:25:40] Yeah, I think, you know, just to wrap up the Howard US journey, I think, you know, ended up as a prize executive there and the initial jump to bat for. You know, they bought Howard s right at the time. And so I’d taken an abstinence out of Howard s right. And gone done some design, build work with Tark Construction for a couple of years there. And what’s to do Auto, who’s still a good friend of mine to this day. And again, there. Clark, I learned really about design building the two year period up there. And it stands to great stead to this day. And, you know, so I think then, you know, going to bar for BD was really kind of going back to Howard’s. Right. And the opportunity just came up a talkative start at that point in time. Want to move east, you know, get a little closer to Ireland. My wife’s family was on the East Coast. And so Howard is right. Of course, he didn’t have anything. And Clark did have an office on the East Coast. But then a friend of mine had mentioned that Balfour Beatty was looking for a project director in the Carolinas. And so I ended up talking with Tim Garrison here in the Carolinas, who was the V.P. at the time. And so he and I clicked. The guys is fortunate, you know, got connected up. And again, he took me under his wing, along with David Dooley here in the Carolinas and mentor me and said something to me. And so it came as a project director, which is really a lateral move from a project executive type thing. And then, you know, just the plan was to be Tim’s successor when Tim retired. And that’s basically what happened there. So good.
Gareth McGlynn [00:27:16] That’s how was the transition from what we had been building to data centers doing data centers at Howard?
Martin Walsh [00:27:24] S right side. I had some data source for Intel in Northern California. And so at that time, the data center business was just really getting going. And so there wasn’t that many people with a lot of experience and associate guys kind of fortunate that I ended up coming in and developed relationships with some key clients that, you know, you’d recognize them all. And, you know, again, that comes back to the relationship side because you get to project executive level, you know, big primary part of your job and a contractor is generate business for the company. It’s not about, you know, obviously you need the operational foundation, but it’s not about right now realize that it’s about getting a strategy and developing a personal business within a business, if you will, to support the overall company’s profitability is really a primary job. And so, you know, HUD learned that again and hired us. Right, in spades. That was the way they operated. You know, it was good at it is debatable when I started out. You know, it’s like anything you have to start somewhere.
Martin Walsh [00:28:22] And so definitely, definitely got, you know, the hang of it. And, you know, ended up being successful, getting, you know, getting some nice jobs. Well, from me, you know, in my time there.
Gareth McGlynn [00:28:34] Good. And talk to us about the softer side of transitioning from California to Charlotte. What did you see in Charlotte? What is Charlotte kind of giving you over the last number of years?
Martin Walsh [00:28:47] Well, I think the thing is, is at the time when we left, we had two two babies, basically.
Martin Walsh [00:28:52] And I think the end of the day, at that point in time in California with the recession, there was no work anywhere except San Francisco. And so obviously was too expensive to move there with two young kids. We tried it, but it was just, you know, too expensive. And then the grind of driving from Sacramento to the Bay Area just got so crazy and so long story short. You know, I think a mixture of just as time to start looking somewhere else just for the sustainability of cost of living and bringing kids up is the primary thing. And then after living in California for so many years, moving to the Northeast would have been a tough ask, just weatherwise, putting it quite bluntly, you know.
Martin Walsh [00:29:32] So, you know, here in the Southeast, you know, the weather is the more temperate, you know. And, you know, we didn’t know much about of at the time. But I think when we did our research, it was all the pointers economically were it’s going north. And, you know, we like that about us. And then when we came here and saw just what you can get for your money for a house, the quality of the schools is both good public and private schools here. You know, it’s great. And then, you know, just gave us easier access to Irelands to get back to Ireland. And then it’s closer to the rest of the West family here, too. So I think all those things combined really is a great place to bring the kids up.
Martin Walsh [00:30:09] And for me. Business wise, it’s been great. You know, so far from a work opportunity, life opportunity perspective, it’s top notch.
Gareth McGlynn [00:30:19] You know, we haven’t really talked before on air. I mean, we do a lot of work in the southeast and the south as well.
Gareth McGlynn [00:30:26] And there’s not obviously as many Irish people as New York or Boston or even Washington. But the numbers there, they’re going there in their droves. There seems to be a good Irish community dynamic moment.
Martin Walsh [00:30:38] There is there’s a great Irish community here. I mean, you know, you’ve got some good ideas, companies here, you know, based in Charlotte as well, or just south to Charlotte. You know, we’ve got, you know, engineering out South Carolina, you know, great Donegal company again. You’ve got, you know, does this does this the bastard, the finance world? There’s a ton of people here. So it’s just, you know, it’s just a good mean. The St. Patrick’s Day parade here is a big we didn’t have this year due to Koven 19. But it’s a big, big event in Charlotte every year. And, you know, you’d be surprised how many people all over Ireland are here now. Could you go into town on a football Sunday or a rugby rugby Saturday? You know, you’re never going to be sure to find it.
Martin Walsh [00:31:23] Finding people to hang out with Sri Lanka to Fiji, Fiji eight is on the run. There is there is a good well, listen, I mean, that that transition, Charlotte, to a huge market for us at the moment.
Gareth McGlynn [00:31:38] The Carolinas, it’s it doesn’t seem to be as affected by COVID as a lot of the other states. It seems to be playing on whether it’s in specific industries, manufacturing, healthcare. And you mentioned the life sciences, pharma, technology industries over in Raleigh. It seems quite diverse to be able to counter right through this. Koven 19. I’ve come out stronger.
Martin Walsh [00:32:02] Yeah, I think so. You know, I think I think both the governors in both states have done a good job. You know, I think there’s always be debate on, you know, what’s the right wrong thing to do is. But I think in general, you know, the case numbers are low. We want them to stay there. You know, I think, you know, right now I’m involved of planning how to bring our companies, teammates back to work and safe manner know. So there’s doesn’t have to be intentional. Let’s be thoughtful. And you have to think about, you know, just the culture of what you want each individual company going forward, because we want everyone to feel healthy, safe when they’re at work. They want to know because that’s a big piece of productivity. And so there’s just a it’s a transformational time and at the time opportunity in our business, because you listen and read and things going on out there right now, it’s there’s just a lot of it’s just like with the with the virus itself. Now, with the response to getting back to work, there’s a lot of fiction out there and there’s a lot of fact. And so separate the two is is really, really important for companies because otherwise you can just spend a boatload of money for not very much in return. So at the end of the day, you know, you’ve got to keep your people as the most important thing and just build from there is really what’s important. A big part of my job right now is supporting our company and supporting our teammates and creating the environment for them to come back to work and continue the success.
Gareth McGlynn [00:33:28] Absolutely couldn’t agree with you more. And I’m interested, intrigued to find out a little bit about how your transition went from the general contractor side to know working with Sonic. Give us an idea what what it’s like on the client side compared to say it’s been a it’s been tremendous.
Martin Walsh [00:33:48] Again, I think from my from my personal sort of make up, if you will. I think, again, it’s just a natural evolution and tailor made similar Bartal Pacific was I started out. I think it’s you know, it’s it’s kind of a perfect fit for me. And it’s again, I’m a person that likes to be challenged continually. Like to learn. I like to continually learn. And so now it’s giving me the opportunity to bring to bear my experiences the last 20 years.
Martin Walsh [00:34:16] Apply them in a pure in a pure business perspective. Right. Really getting a strategy developed that supports an overall company mission outside of just individual projects, individual estimates, individual deliverables. Now you bring an entire thing together to be a solution for an enterprise, which I find very, very rewarding. And I’ve learned a tremendous amount about what it takes to really develop projects, because going the way I came.
Martin Walsh [00:34:47] The one thing I never had was really what is the true client’s perspective and need at the end of the day? If I had advice for anybody in the preconstruction world is really understand operationally what a client needs and ensure your reading between the lines and not just the lines on a drawing or a concept drawing that comes in from an architect. You really dig underneath the covers and understand the operations of your client or what is their needs. Because that I can personally tell you the last five years is a lost art in our business. And it doesn’t. It’s very, very, very hard to explain that to people to actually live it. And I didn’t realize I didn’t even have it myself. And I came here to gossip about something I’ve learned. And again, I’ve been fortunate, you know. Jeff Dike and Tim Keane and REM Valentine, like my bosses, they all saw something we believed and gave me a chance. And David Smith, our CEO, and I’ve just been just very, very, very fortunate. And, you know, it really now it really helps to see how business really operates and really as we to be a part of delivering on a business’s vision. Because everyday that’s what we’re all here for, is to deliver shareholder value, you know.
Gareth McGlynn [00:36:03] Yeah, absolutely.
Gareth McGlynn [00:36:04] And I’m interested to see just from your take there in the from preconstruction estimated G.C., do you find that your line of communication from you as the main contact with the client to not the CEO or the general manager or the Vickie’s within general contractors? You think the more important discussion is the preconstruction and estimating team within a general contractor getting what you want and what’s important to you, your communication with those guys?
Martin Walsh [00:36:34] Yeah, it is. It’s critical that the people are actually doing the work is the critical piece. And I think, you know, the thing that I see is a lot of preconstruction departments are definitely very under-resourced. And a lot of times estimates are just kind of thrown out of there based upon here’s the last five jobs and roughly here is how much a square foot or whatever. But the reality is, is every city is different, every projects different and really getting a little bit more specific in the estimates and deliverable. And again, understanding the business operations like in our case, you know where it is. Car haulers come in and out of a site is what’s on the drawing. Going to work is their issues. How are you going to secure your inventory? How are you going to secure your building? You know, all these sort of things that are not necessarily, quote unquote building items, but in the operational team, they’re critical for building a parking garage for a car dealer. You know how you set up the circulation and how the you know, how the business operations don’t actually operate cars or move cars is critical to success, because for us, every minute we spend, moving a car is a minute and a dollar. But we’re wasting, you know, so we’re really understanding. And it’s no different for data centers. You know, looking back now, if I had the experience I have now when I was in the data center world, I been a lot better at that because, again, you can recognize forgetting about what’s funny on the drawings. I can just recognize what and how and understand and think about how a business is going to operate and how the people that come to work and have to maintain that building and operate the building day in, day out. What their needs are is definitely a lost art in both design and preconstruction in the business right now. But it’s also a great opera. For young people like you, every young person I’ve talked to wants to get in this business. I tell them there’s never a more exciting or more opportunistic time to get into this business. And then right now.
Gareth McGlynn [00:38:39] Yeah. And I took a grief on this preconstruction podcast is that it’s been able to get to the people that matter.
Gareth McGlynn [00:38:47] Should be the guys that are into interns at the moment. The guys are even in high school that are looking to go into college or they’re in college to get them as much information and content as possible. But it seems to what you’re saying they’re naivety is what you touched on at the very beginning on your education. And Gawley is the broad cover offering of what you covered within that degree, but also been able to problem solve. If you have got an unbelievable estimated preconstruction guy that comes to you on bed, they ask you those operational questions, then your interest automatically speak your and your interest peak peaks to ask, too. Asking too many questions is is is never now you can never ask another question, you know.
Martin Walsh [00:39:32] Yeah. And I think the thing is, as you know, within a preconstruction department. Right. I think the thing is, you know, it takes all shapes and sizes of people of different talents to bring complicated estimates together because you do need to have someone that understands the construction operation side of things. But then you also do need someone that understands the numbers and covering scope and all that tactical things that are important. So I’m not saying that you don’t need those things. But I think that’s the easier stuff because that’s what people are comfortable with. And I think pushing yourself to. There’s a there’s a there’s a strange relationship between architects and preconstruction partners. In my estimation, any ways that people are afraid to ask an architect a question because they feel like if they ask a question in the preconstruction period, it could blow the job up on them. My answer to that is you might want to think about how you’re asking the question, right. You don’t need to be a self looked like the smartest guy in the block. You just need to go have a have a non, you know, threatening discussion. And it’s okay. Help me understand this. What’s important to clients is you may help the architect be successful and ultimately get the job, too, if you help them think through these things. So I think that’s you know, it’s very interesting to watch and to see. I mean, now I was probably in the same boat. I was there to clear. But I think it’s it’s very interesting to watch that interaction that happens.
Gareth McGlynn [00:41:05] And it’s it’s interest to watch it. But the lines of communication are key.
Gareth McGlynn [00:41:10] If they are going to ignore preconstruction just sitting there in their office to pick up the phone to one another to speak to one million, you’re going to have major problems in the operation side of things.
Martin Walsh [00:41:20] One hundred percent, correct. The thing is, it is important if you’re doing design build versus the traditional models. Right.
Martin Walsh [00:41:27] You know, some of the things you know, Ireland is predominantly, you know, more hard bed kind of quantity type situation where, you know, quality servers primarily. Look at that. A big mistake. I see people making that make the transition from that war to come over here. There’s quite a few. Right, that have come over. I had the opportunity to work with over the years is you’ll get dollars in from contractors here. Right. And there may not be contacts. I’ll just talk to her electricals. Two million automatically people will start all what’s in that two million and it just becomes this sort of fight. I think having the foresight to provide context, if you want to come in from a contractor in a certain way, if you communicate that fairly to them, say, hey, does how are we going to see I know you have good methods of estimating, but for us, it’s to help us understand this is kind of how we need to see the numbers and provide context to them. Is is critical to for communication because, you know, when you’re dealing particularly to construct worlds, it’s a different world of estimating and method of estimating a thought process, you know. But some people still can’t up so that they’re thinking they’re in a bid situation. Right. So it’s I don’t want that number to get too high. So I think being able to contextualize your numbers is critical. You know, I remember deal with the big debts, our clients in the U.S. from Scotland. Few number years back. And he said, oh, you’re Steeles too high. And I’ve just come to ask him, why are you thinking is too high? Well, well, because on the last day, something that we only spent X dollars and I’m like, well, well, how big was your last datacenter? He said this was like, well, we’ve got double the size data center here, Sophie. Let’s put some context round numbers and whichever we can go by tonn or we can go by square foot RV you want. Let’s just compare that way and we compare that where we ended up being on a per unit basis cheaper than what he bought the last year.
Martin Walsh [00:43:26] So. The caution there is making sure you are your contextualizing if you’re going to use Benchmark’s, contextualize them as your generate estimates.
Martin Walsh [00:43:35] So that way you understand it’s more than just dollars per square foot. Try and put it per ton per cubic yard for something else to have a secondary metric that can can help you quickly explain what’s behind your number, because then then most flights are reasonable. So, OK, we don’t need that many pounds per square foot steel and our structures. We only need this so that, you know, lead to a conversation. And that’s ultimately what you want to be able to do. In my mind, to be successful, the preconstruction worked well. And that’s what Bill Genset, the gentleman and I mentioned, Tim Howard is right in Oregon. That’s the one thing he taught me years ago and it stuck with me ever since, is just understanding, you know, to the level you need to go, what’s in the number. But being able to explain it is the other part, be able to communicate around us because just throwing a dollar number across the fence isn’t going to get to there.
Gareth McGlynn [00:44:33] But what you did very cleverly and that situation was conflict resolution that could could have turned into quite a hairy conversation. But it diffused the conversation by asking the question back and being able to ask and and have him almost go into more detail on why you thought that. And then you were able to find out that.
Martin Walsh [00:44:52] Yes, because you have to. Yeah, well, you have to remember, as I’ve even seen myself, I’ve been this way myself and my current role. You’re busy with a lot of business things going on. So the hours you get to sit down with someone that’s kind of preconstruction to present an estimate to you. You know, you’ve got a million other things you’ve just been doing and you’re under a lot of pressure. You’ve got a deadline that you’ve got to get to finance or whatever for free. Congi, you spent two or three weeks putting this estimate together. And so you have to think about it as you’re coming in to sit with the client. Just understand that client is probably only giving you this hour. He probably hasn’t thought about this job before. You sit down with you and he won’t be talking about it again after you leave. And he certainly will be thinking about it again. If you’re not able to explain the value that’s in your proposition that you’re given. But if you show him that you’ve thought about what’s important to him, that will peak the interest. I guarantee you any client, because I talk to a lot of peers of mine and it’s a very similar story that you hear. Yeah, yeah, regardless of income.
Gareth McGlynn [00:45:58] Yeah, that’s true, I was going to say, because at the moment we’ve got Koven. But I’m still beat people. Clients are still hiring the North Koreans, South Korean and generally South East, but they’re still paying for the same people that they were looking for prior to Kofod because the best people are still working, to be honest with you. During a pandemic like this, they’re a little less inclined to move to it. It’s getting even harder to get the best people it is.
Martin Walsh [00:46:22] And I think some of that Garreth is a hangover from the last recession. And it does scare me a little bit. What’s going to happen here is if you look at the same thing happened even in Ireland, there there was two or three years there. You mean hardly any civil engineers were turned out and hardly any QSA because there was no work in the in the industry and people weren’t thinking about it. By the time you get out of college or for years, it’ll will be back. But that happened all over the world, happened here at the US. And so we’ve never recovered. So there’s a gap. People from say my sort of experience level to the 10 year person, there’s there’s some new people coming in, but there’s a gap of some of the young people who’ve come into the business. I mean, I’ve got someone working for me right now. They are the brightest and best of hard workers I’ve ever been around. And I’ve got nothing but good things to say about the gen zipper’s, you know, the millennials. I think there was a lot of hysteria, noise out there about their their abilities and their willingness to work with. But I found that everyone might around I find the opposite. They’re the brightest, best. They’re energetic. They want to be part of something good. They want to deliver. They want to please you know, I think, you know, there’s definitely talent out there, but it just doesn’t have the experience yet. That’s the piece that’s missing, you know, and I think I think there’s gonna be ten more hard years yet as more and more of the baby boomers leave of really getting the right and experienced people in. And then what’s the problem you’re going to have is who’s going to train them as they’re coming in? And you look across the country, who’s there to train these young people to get these skills that we just talked about?
Gareth McGlynn [00:48:04] You know, but Martin seen that the knowledge retention is key over the next five to 10 years.
Gareth McGlynn [00:48:10] The amount of estimating departments that I’ve spoken and I said, yeah, we’ve got six people in the estimating department. We’ve got five over the age of 50. And we’ve got one guy here who’s an intern. Well, what are you going to do in ten years whenever all of that knowledge walks out the door and retires? It is. It’s tom me. We can’t fix that generational gap, but we can fix the knowledge that’s walking under the industry in the next five or ten years with a boat. And and if you bring it back, even to get that three or four years experience, you’ve gotta stop looking for the guy that’s got three or four years experience and look for the really bright project managers, AP, PMS superintendents that really want to get in to preconstruction and activity because they’re the they’re the ideal candidates for me.
Martin Walsh [00:48:57] Yeah. I think, you know, there’s been a big focus on the last number of years on we’ve got to get superintendents. And there’s been a great focus. And I’ve met a lot of young men and women that have become great superintendents with college degrees. Right. Because that was the talk five, six years ago. The tradesmen are all diet, a great success in a lot of companies. Now I’ve got good young superintendent slash construction managers on sites now both men and women, which is fantastic. And I think the reason that that happened is because companies put a focus on it. And I think three preconstruction, in my experience, has always been the poor relation. At least here in the US of contracting companies, when a recession comes, it’s the first place they go to cut headcount. It’s it’s just mind baffling to me. It’s really mind blowing because it’s the lifeblood of your business. It’s like you guys are the front line winning work for you and helping you. So it’s very exciting. So I just think if I focus got put there and does what you say and trains these young people and and finds ones that have a passion towards this and show them there’s a path because most people’s want. I understand. Is there a path for me to move up the company? That’s what most young people with energy want. And if you can show them that path similar to what happened in the field, I think that’s what would get someone to jump. A young project engineer isn’t going to go to pre plant department if he thinks there’s no future for me there in the company.
Gareth McGlynn [00:50:26] Yeah, so that the whole the whole stigma around construction and high schools and even high schools, especially because before they select their degree, they’re thinking moggs bricks, dirt and construction that really vtc ben preconstruction constructions getting sexy again. But we’ve got to sell it that way and we’ve got to sell em careers. And just one other thing you mentioned there. But the education. My but naive to think that either a large, really large, wealthy construction company should be opening up a quantity surveying type degree rather than the civil, electrical, mechanical. We still need these.
Gareth McGlynn [00:51:05] But there has to be a preconstruction estimating quantity surveying degree available for people that purely want to get into that space.
Martin Walsh [00:51:17] Yeah, I think I think so. I think, you know, I think there’s some folks up there in New York actually doing just that right now. But I think, you know, I think even the quantity surveying degree needs a little more refinement to it’s to really resonate over here. You know, in the US, as far as I think the interpersonal side of it, you know, and how to interact is critical with contractors not put on the defensive right away. Because in Irelands this, what I remember was there was a pretty good friction between quality surveyors and, you know, some contractors and stuff. So I think that relationship here in the US is definitely markedly different. Contractors rely solely on subcontractors that when work and so they want positive relationships. Yes, I think I think that side of it is good. I think the metric side of it that you’re talking about is is definitely important.
Martin Walsh [00:52:18] But I think, again, contextualizing the overall low level tactical numbers into the bigger picture is critical. The ability to do that is critical. And then the other part of it, just to follow what it said, though, I think the the today’s advances in technology, you know, been VTC all that is definitely a piece of, you know, I think what the future could hold.
Martin Walsh [00:52:42] But I think the other part really is, is machine learning. And, you know, there’s a friend of mine right now out there, you know, looking to develop a software that really leverages machine learning to help predict what numbers need to be and should be based upon labor rates and materials and all that kind of stuff. So there’s.
Gareth McGlynn [00:53:03] Yeah, Martin. I mean, that that’s one thing that I speak to a lot of people about with NBT, CPM machine. And tell me. Talk to me in your experience. A boat. I think you called it a three legged spool still. Right. The architect, the general contractor and the designer. Give us an understanding of how that dynamic works and how we can improve it.
Martin Walsh [00:53:24] Yeah, I think, you know, Dan, today, some some of you got the owner of the architect and actually designers and contractors. And I think the end of the day, sometimes it feels like there’s competing interests between the designers and the contractors and what it should really all be one. All for one and one for all to really deliver a budget solution, an operational solution that would meet what the client is looking for. Right. And so and not to be afraid to have. And that does mean it to be all nice. I mean, there’s definite times that you might have to have hard conversations ahead.
Martin Walsh [00:53:54] His budget isn’t realistic for what you’re asking, but it’s all in how you have that conversation. Right? Is that is that is the trick and having it early enough. But to me, it goes into having the right talent in your preconstruction department from a contractor. It can actually communicate well and anticipate. I mean, you can look at a set of plans that comes into you and say that plan right there, that’s structural, like Bill Gensen go back to him again. He was an expert when he’d see a set of plans and he’d see the structure set up on a on a clear set of plans. He would be able to tell right away that geometry of that building is more expensive. If we just make the building five feet this way of four feet this way, that will bring the costs down because all of a sudden we’ve got less exterior skin on the bill. We’ve got all these knock on effects so that anticipation and overlaying it with the machine learning is really once out. So you’re never going to get rid of the human element, the human intelligence side. That’s either in my mind, because the human has to be able to, you know, recognize these things and be able to communicate. And so I think communication improvement is the single maybe the old cliche, but it’s still holds true, is critical to improving that and then really educating the architects, because then too often what happens is the designers will run off drawing. A program, and it ultimately comes back to not understanding the operational program because you’ll have a building that’s 10000 thousand square feet too big. You’re going to have, you know, then that’s going to cost up whatever was going to be all bad because the cost has gone up. The today, nobody said, OK, let’s bring this back down to the program. This is the program that we need. Is every square foot being utilized as efficiently as it can and get to that basic kind of level of discussion before you want us wasting a bunch of money drawing. So it. Again, it goes back into not to be a good process, but to at least set up a good communication process at the start of the job and have everybody agree. This is the square footage. And what kind of goals are square for all of us because we know we can’t afford that. Right. We need whatever the parameters are. And I think that’s the key is having foresight, anticipation, skills and communication skills early so that everyone, so they understand as a program, understands the mission of what they’re trying to accomplish before you just start trying to solve a problem, because our business is full of problem solvers. Sometimes as a Dutchman, we start drawing in before you really know what outcome you need to have. So I think having a line of sight on your desired outcome is critical fault and readjust.
Gareth McGlynn [00:56:37] I just kind of touch on that slightly. Martin is that way. People are going towards the design build and the negotiated part of work because the negotiated part gets everybody, all parties involved at the very, very beginning.
Gareth McGlynn [00:56:53] And even though does that as well, especially especially these companies and I can name two or three, the likes of the group POSCO, these guys that have the architect and heisse their designers in-house and they’re geniuses and hopes for a client. Is there something nice? And and and what’s the word? You just have more confidence that everything and everyone’s working in the one one harmony, if you like.
Martin Walsh [00:57:19] Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I’ve seen that, you know, I think it’s hard to see for complex jobs the all in-house firms working side work to the core of them.
Martin Walsh [00:57:30] And I think there’s a limit to that ability and their level of creativity, because most clients still do need the creative ability that architects bring. The trick is getting everyone in the right seat on the bus and leveraging their strengths and not trying to focus on how to do something not good at that. I think having the education regardless, it was all in all it all in-house company or you have separate companies. I think communication is key. If you go to a bid, you know, we had a big job that we just did recently, but we just.
Martin Walsh [00:58:08] The it was over. We put the mindset of everybody working together as the as the rule, so to speak, and that, you know, that that had no effect. You know, no adverse effects, just as is the bed. It’s all in the leadership and all in how you approach and how you set your job up for communication and teamwork environment.
Martin Walsh [00:58:30] In my mind, I think some of the stuff I think, you know, I used to be on the board of the DEA, so I know all the values to design, build it has its place in certain deals. But again, there’s a lot to it. There’s a lot of risk factors. There’s a lot of you know, it gets into a lot of business side of things before we make that decision. It’s not necessarily just about communication to all the three, the three legged stool. To me, it’s more that’s more of a behavioral thing that should happen regardless of delivery models.
Gareth McGlynn [00:59:03] OK, good, good. Well, listen, Martin, it’s safe to say that, I mean, you can chat here all day, but we do have to you got to love in your to do things, you know, want to say. I want to say thank you very much. That’s been that’s been a real insight.
Gareth McGlynn [00:59:18] We might be able to catch up with you this time. Twelve months to see if they are getting on and see how this market has come out of this COVID 19 pandemic.
Martin Walsh [00:59:26] One hundred percent at any time, too. Thanks for having me again. Really enjoyed as well.
Gareth McGlynn [00:59:31] No problem. Thanks, Martin. Speaking to you soon.
Gareth McGlynn [00:59:39] Well, I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did.
Gareth McGlynn [00:59:42] Maybe I’m being a small bit biased towards a fellow countryman, but Martin comes across as someone that loves continuously developing his construction knowledge.
Gareth McGlynn [00:59:53] That was pretty evident the way that he threw himself at every new challenge, every new rule. Never, ever shying away from anything. I really enjoyed his understanding of collaboration. The passion he has for collaboration.
Gareth McGlynn [01:00:06] When he discusses the three legged stool, the client, the architect and the GC, it just goes to show that being a good communicator and working on your soft skills is vital for climbing the ladder in the construction industry. As always, folks, please like and share the podcast with your peers, your colleagues and your friends.
Gareth McGlynn [01:00:27] We have lots more great content coming up, so stay tuned.
